Passtive/Active defence. - Guild Wars Forums

Spinny · Mar 19, 2009, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Haio.
Maybe i'm just abit dumb, but what exactly is passive and active defence?
I guess that like, Dark escape is 'Passive' since, your getting damage reduced..and like, a stance like er..Defensive Stance is active?
That's probably 100% wrong but w,e

Thanks.

zelgadissan · Mar 19, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

I might be a little off, but how I've always looked at it:

Passive defense is stuff with a prolonged effect that you might not necessarily need at the time but still works to defend yourself. Shouts like [There's Nothing to Fear!] or [Ballad of Restoration] would be a good example of passive defense.

Active defense would be something that you do to defend yourself as a direct action of your opponent; for example you see a Warrior running at somebody so you throw up a [Guardian] or [Protective Spirit] or something.

zling · Mar 19, 2009, 06:33 PM // 18:33

indeed it's 100% wrong.
passive defenses are basically AoE defenses hence not targetted at a specific ally, such as [defensive anthem][ward against melee][ward against harm][aegis] while active defenses are single target defenses hence targeted at a specific ally, such as [guardian][shield of absorption][protective spirit][weapon of warding]

generally passive defenses were a major problem more than a year ago with dual [defensive anthem] Paragons, [ward against melee] on FC Mesmers, etc
while active defenses were and still are considered as the ultimate test of Monking skills, as good pre protting=high skills for Monks.

Lourens · Mar 19, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

I think defensive skills with longer duration are considered passive because they r not always needed aka [protective spirit][aegis] etc...

While active defence is a skill with a 1 time reaction aka [reversal of fortune][reversal of damage][reverse hex] etc

so i consider pre prots to be passive because your waiting to get attacked

correct me if im wrong

snaek · Mar 19, 2009, 07:57 PM // 19:57

gw its a little bit more tricker to understand, as by definition, all skills must be activated and so all can be considered "active defense". gw doesn't really have true "passive defense" which would be things more like armour insignias and shield sets. but since shield sets can be switched in and out, it would also be considered active defense.

instead, passive defense is any skill used whether or not damage is occuring. this is most often found in aoe skills such as [[aegis]. another typical behaviour of passive defense skills is their long duration and ability to upkeep them for extend periods of time. active defense is a skill used to prot specific damage that is occurring this very moment, often during a spike, such as [[reversal of fortune]. a skill like [[protective spirit] can be used both passively and actively. however i find its used more passively in pve, and more actively in pvp.

btw there was a thread bout this a long while back, which im sure explains it pretty well. you can search for it, i can't remember what it was exactly.

joshuarodger · Mar 19, 2009, 08:04 PM // 20:04

zelgadissan got it about as close to right as you're gonna get. active defense is a direct counter to something you're opponent does. passive defense is using a skill that prevents/limits damage before the damage actually occurs.

zling · Mar 19, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

I think defensive skills with longer duration are considered passive because they r not always needed aka [protective spirit][aegis] etc...

While active defence is a skill with a 1 time reaction aka [reversal of fortune][reversal of damage][reverse hex] etc

so i consider pre prots to be passive because your waiting to get attacked

correct me if im wrong

very very wrong here pal. while [aegis] is infact passive defense your reasoning for it is wrong, hence you put [protective spirit] in the same sentence.
read my definition, right above yours, it will give you a better clue.

P.S since when are [reversal of damage] and [reverse hex] considered prot skills at all?

yes they do mitigate damage, somewhat, but they're never used so... also their main usage is for damage not damage mitigation, and even Smiters have better skills to use...

Lourens · Mar 19, 2009, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

very very wrong here pal. while [aegis] is infact passive defense your reasoning for it is wrong, hence you put [protective spirit] in the same sentence.
read my definition, right above yours, it will give you a better clue.

P.S since when are [reversal of damage] and [reverse hex] considered prot skills at all?

yes they do mitigate damage, somewhat, but they're never used so... also their main usage is for damage not damage mitigation, and even Smiters have better skills to use...

the times your not getting attacked Aegis is pretty useless isnt it ? same goes for protective spirit.
[reversal of damage] is a pretty good skill damage wise and protection wise

what sneak said almost all skills are considered active while shields and insignias are passive

and im not your pal

snaek · Mar 19, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58

lourens is correct to say [[protective spirit] is passive defense, however it can also be used as active defense. the definition he/she used is not wrong, but i wouldn't call it complete.

he/she is also correct in calling [[reversal of damage] and [[reverse hex] as active defense just as the op is correct in calling [[defensive stance] active defense, i.e. it doesn't have to be a monk spell under protection prayers. however, i would consider them more passive defense because of how they are used in most situations, since the "defense" part comes secondary to the primary effect. they usually just spam them on recharge to do damage but yes, if a target is being spiked, both of those skills can be used actively to prevent the spike.

thats what i meant by tricky. by definition all "skills" are "active". therefore -all- defensive skills can be used actively, however some of them tend to be used more "passively". so the only way to gauge it is how its being used under a specific situation. im assuming zling is looking it strictly from a gvg perspective.

zling · Mar 19, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

well, it seems you guys still dont get it... active and passive defenses are differenciated by the targetting, that's all. AoE defenses that you just cast(not target anyone in particular) are passive defenses, other skills that you actually cast on somebody(be it prot prayers or others such as WoW) are active defenses.
shields and insignias dont even count for this since when we talk about active and passive defenses we're reffering purely to skills...

as for stances, they're a bit of a dillema, they arent really active because you dont target anyone with them, however they arent AoE so they arent really passive. I still consider them passive but I can understand others who will consider them as active.

snaek · Mar 19, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

^untrue. while that is characteristic of the definitions of passive and active defense, it is not the definition itself.

if it was strictly aoe. then the categories would be called "aoe defense" and "single-target defense". and of course they're not called that, so its not that simple. it just so happens that aoe defensive skills are generally used passively, just as skills with long durations are used passively quite often.

zling · Mar 19, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

well, you're trying to use [protective spirit] as a passive defense example. so lets see:
you cast it on a target inorder to prot it, how is it passive? yes you'll give me the "you can also use it actively" so let me counter with: "how do you use it passively than?" and please dont say "spam it on recharge"

AoE defense is the wrong term because not all of the "AoE defenses" are what the game considers as AoE(adjacent, nearby, in the area), just take a look at [aegis] and [defensive anthem] to understand what where I'm going...
and please dont tell me that "all party members" isnt effectively AoE, because it is, just not called that way.

Eddie Frenzy Spam · Mar 19, 2009, 11:19 PM // 23:19

You're never going to get a clear cut definition of active and passive defense, their will always be skills that could fit into either catagory.

For a general rule of thumb though:

Active Defense:
Stuff like [Guardian][Spirit Bond][Reversal Of Fortune][Blinding Surge][Life Sheath] is all considered active defense. Why? Because you have to monitor the specific actions of the opposing team in order to get the effect of using the skill, i.e watching the Warrior to place Guardian on the correct targets, SB the spike targets. All of these things require you to actively watch what is going on and observe the enemy team. A lot of the skills that would come under active defense are generally low cost/short duration/short recharge by NATURE and not by DEFINITION. This kind of defense is really praised by PvP communities due to the skill required in using it effectively.

Passive Defense: These are skills that do not require active observation of the opposing team to be effective, they generally tend to fall under the fire and forget catagory such as [Aegis][Ward Against Melee][Defensive Anthem]. Again these tend to be AoE with Long Recharge/High Cost by NATURE and not by DEFINITION as a lot of people are stating. You do not need to monitor the opposing team in order to fire off an aegis and still thwart the opposing Warriors, this is why it is considered passive. Generally the PvP community does not like layers and layers of passive defensive because of the lack of skill involved in using it effectively.

Rhamia Darigaz · Mar 20, 2009, 01:22 AM // 01:22

eddie's explanation is the best in the thread.
as for the prot spirit mini-debate i noticed, an example of a passive prot spirit would be using it on a warrior so he can frenzy without canceling it or something. you're not actively protting against a specific action by the other team, you're just creating a background safety device for your bad warrior to fall back on when he misses the cancel stance button and refreshes frenzy.
using prot spirit actively would be something like casting it on someone who's about to be obsidian flame spiked.

Skyy High · Mar 20, 2009, 02:58 AM // 02:58

eddie's definition is the best, imo. It's not as simple as "active = targetted, passive = untargetted" because of the existence of things like [[Life Bond]] and [[Vital Weapon]], which are both single target spells, but clearly passive forms of defense.

Lourens · Mar 20, 2009, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie the reaper

You're never going to get a clear cut definition of active and passive defense, their will always be skills that could fit into either catagory.

For a general rule of thumb though:

Active Defense:
Stuff like [Guardian][Spirit Bond][Reversal Of Fortune][Blinding Surge][Life Sheath] is all considered active defense. Why? Because you have to monitor the specific actions of the opposing team in order to get the effect of using the skill, i.e watching the Warrior to place Guardian on the correct targets, SB the spike targets. All of these things require you to actively watch what is going on and observe the enemy team. A lot of the skills that would come under active defense are generally low cost/short duration/short recharge by NATURE and not by DEFINITION. This kind of defense is really praised by PvP communities due to the skill required in using it effectively.

Passive Defense: These are skills that do not require active observation of the opposing team to be effective, they generally tend to fall under the fire and forget catagory such as [Aegis][Ward Against Melee][Defensive Anthem]. Again these tend to be AoE with Long Recharge/High Cost by NATURE and not by DEFINITION as a lot of people are stating. You do not need to monitor the opposing team in order to fire off an aegis and still thwart the opposing Warriors, this is why it is considered passive. Generally the PvP community does not like layers and layers of passive defensive because of the lack of skill involved in using it effectively.

[Aegis][Ward Against Melee][Defensive Anthem] these skills require some thought because they got an area of effect it wont affect the frontliner if you cast aegis in the back because its within an earshot and area of effect from the Ward is even smaller

tmakinen · Mar 20, 2009, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Eddie gets it right. I would like to elaborate further that ultimately it's a difference in play style, and instead of 'active' a good descriptive word for that playing style would be 'preactive'. The reason why people often talk about passive/active skills is that many skills naturally favor one play style over the other. However, skills are not inherently active or passive and some of them can be used either way. As mentioned, Prot Spirit falls in this category. It's not about AoE/targeted effect either. The old "Incoming!" (before complete makeover) was an AoE spike catch skill and thus intended for active play. On the other hand, when first introduced it had a long enough duration for two paragons chaining it passively.

I prefer the word 'preactive' because it embodies the essential quality of the active defence: when you see an action by the enemy and respond with a specific counter, it is a reaction to that action. When you anticipate an action by the enemy and apply a specific counter immediately before the action, it is a preaction to that action. Reaction is a mechanical activity that requires little else than quick reflexes (and that's why heroes are decent in pushing red bars up) whereas preaction requires actual skill, being the primary quality that differentiates good players from the rest.

Eddie Frenzy Spam · Mar 20, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

[Aegis][Ward Against Melee][Defensive Anthem] these skills require some thought because they got an area of effect it wont affect the frontliner if you cast aegis in the back because its within an earshot and area of effect from the Ward is even smaller

Requiring thought does not mean it is an active defense skill. Every skill in the game requires at least some sort of thought process, no matter how trivial it is. Saying that this means it is considered active defense is absurd.

snaek · Mar 20, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

^starting to change to "active" and "reactive" defense. tbh i think those terms are better for gw, since there really is no "passive" in the usual sense in gw.

Mar 19, 2009, 06:04 PM // 18:04	#1
Spinny Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: United Kingdom Guild: Flying Pink Pig Goes [zOOm] Profession: R/	Passtive/Active defence. Haio. Maybe i'm just abit dumb, but what exactly is passive and active defence? I guess that like, Dark escape is 'Passive' since, your getting damage reduced..and like, a stance like er..Defensive Stance is active? That's probably 100% wrong but w,e Thanks.

Mar 19, 2009, 07:57 PM // 19:57	#5
snaek Forge Runner Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: N/	gw its a little bit more tricker to understand, as by definition, all skills must be activated and so all can be considered "active defense". gw doesn't really have true "passive defense" which would be things more like armour insignias and shield sets. but since shield sets can be switched in and out, it would also be considered active defense. instead, passive defense is any skill used whether or not damage is occuring. this is most often found in aoe skills such as [[aegis]. another typical behaviour of passive defense skills is their long duration and ability to upkeep them for extend periods of time. active defense is a skill used to prot specific damage that is occurring this very moment, often during a spike, such as [[reversal of fortune]. a skill like [[protective spirit] can be used both passively and actively. however i find its used more passively in pve, and more actively in pvp. btw there was a thread bout this a long while back, which im sure explains it pretty well. you can search for it, i can't remember what it was exactly. Last edited by snaek; Mar 19, 2009 at 08:00 PM // 20:00..

Mar 19, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58	#9
snaek Forge Runner Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: N/	lourens is correct to say [[protective spirit] is passive defense, however it can also be used as active defense. the definition he/she used is not wrong, but i wouldn't call it complete. he/she is also correct in calling [[reversal of damage] and [[reverse hex] as active defense just as the op is correct in calling [[defensive stance] active defense, i.e. it doesn't have to be a monk spell under protection prayers. however, i would consider them more passive defense because of how they are used in most situations, since the "defense" part comes secondary to the primary effect. they usually just spam them on recharge to do damage but yes, if a target is being spiked, both of those skills can be used actively to prevent the spike. thats what i meant by tricky. by definition all "skills" are "active". therefore -all- defensive skills can be used actively, however some of them tend to be used more "passively". so the only way to gauge it is how its being used under a specific situation. im assuming zling is looking it strictly from a gvg perspective. Last edited by snaek; Mar 19, 2009 at 10:04 PM // 22:04..

Mar 19, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09	#2
zelgadissan Forge Runner Join Date: Feb 2008 Guild: The Warrior Priests [WP] Profession: Me/Rt	I might be a little off, but how I've always looked at it: Passive defense is stuff with a prolonged effect that you might not necessarily need at the time but still works to defend yourself. Shouts like [There's Nothing to Fear!] or [Ballad of Restoration] would be a good example of passive defense. Active defense would be something that you do to defend yourself as a direct action of your opponent; for example you see a Warrior running at somebody so you throw up a [Guardian] or [Protective Spirit] or something.

Mar 19, 2009, 06:33 PM // 18:33	#3
zling Desert Nomad Join Date: Apr 2006	indeed it's 100% wrong. passive defenses are basically AoE defenses hence not targetted at a specific ally, such as [defensive anthem][ward against melee][ward against harm][aegis] while active defenses are single target defenses hence targeted at a specific ally, such as [guardian][shield of absorption][protective spirit][weapon of warding] generally passive defenses were a major problem more than a year ago with dual [defensive anthem] Paragons, [ward against melee] on FC Mesmers, etc while active defenses were and still are considered as the ultimate test of Monking skills, as good pre protting=high skills for Monks.

Mar 19, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45	#4
Lourens Forge Runner Join Date: Mar 2006	I think defensive skills with longer duration are considered passive because they r not always needed aka [protective spirit][aegis] etc... While active defence is a skill with a 1 time reaction aka [reversal of fortune][reversal of damage][reverse hex] etc so i consider pre prots to be passive because your waiting to get attacked correct me if im wrong

Mar 19, 2009, 08:04 PM // 20:04	#6
joshuarodger Unbanned Join Date: Jan 2008 Guild: Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] -- IGN: Swirly Profession: Mo/	zelgadissan got it about as close to right as you're gonna get. active defense is a direct counter to something you're opponent does. passive defense is using a skill that prevents/limits damage before the damage actually occurs.

Mar 19, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08	#10
zling Desert Nomad Join Date: Apr 2006	well, it seems you guys still dont get it... active and passive defenses are differenciated by the targetting, that's all. AoE defenses that you just cast(not target anyone in particular) are passive defenses, other skills that you actually cast on somebody(be it prot prayers or others such as WoW) are active defenses. shields and insignias dont even count for this since when we talk about active and passive defenses we're reffering purely to skills... as for stances, they're a bit of a dillema, they arent really active because you dont target anyone with them, however they arent AoE so they arent really passive. I still consider them passive but I can understand others who will consider them as active.

Mar 19, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22	#11
snaek Forge Runner Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: N/	^untrue. while that is characteristic of the definitions of passive and active defense, it is not the definition itself. if it was strictly aoe. then the categories would be called "aoe defense" and "single-target defense". and of course they're not called that, so its not that simple. it just so happens that aoe defensive skills are generally used passively, just as skills with long durations are used passively quite often.

Mar 19, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26	#12
zling Desert Nomad Join Date: Apr 2006	well, you're trying to use [protective spirit] as a passive defense example. so lets see: you cast it on a target inorder to prot it, how is it passive? yes you'll give me the "you can also use it actively" so let me counter with: "how do you use it passively than?" and please dont say "spam it on recharge" AoE defense is the wrong term because not all of the "AoE defenses" are what the game considers as AoE(adjacent, nearby, in the area), just take a look at [aegis] and [defensive anthem] to understand what where I'm going... and please dont tell me that "all party members" isnt effectively AoE, because it is, just not called that way.

Mar 19, 2009, 11:19 PM // 23:19	#13
Eddie Frenzy Spam Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jul 2007 Guild: Old N Dirty [ym] Profession: W/E	You're never going to get a clear cut definition of active and passive defense, their will always be skills that could fit into either catagory. For a general rule of thumb though: Active Defense: Stuff like [Guardian][Spirit Bond][Reversal Of Fortune][Blinding Surge][Life Sheath] is all considered active defense. Why? Because you have to monitor the specific actions of the opposing team in order to get the effect of using the skill, i.e watching the Warrior to place Guardian on the correct targets, SB the spike targets. All of these things require you to actively watch what is going on and observe the enemy team. A lot of the skills that would come under active defense are generally low cost/short duration/short recharge by NATURE and not by DEFINITION. This kind of defense is really praised by PvP communities due to the skill required in using it effectively. Passive Defense: These are skills that do not require active observation of the opposing team to be effective, they generally tend to fall under the fire and forget catagory such as [Aegis][Ward Against Melee][Defensive Anthem]. Again these tend to be AoE with Long Recharge/High Cost by NATURE and not by DEFINITION as a lot of people are stating. You do not need to monitor the opposing team in order to fire off an aegis and still thwart the opposing Warriors, this is why it is considered passive. Generally the PvP community does not like layers and layers of passive defensive because of the lack of skill involved in using it effectively.

Mar 20, 2009, 01:22 AM // 01:22	#14
Rhamia Darigaz Desert Nomad Join Date: Apr 2008	eddie's explanation is the best in the thread. as for the prot spirit mini-debate i noticed, an example of a passive prot spirit would be using it on a warrior so he can frenzy without canceling it or something. you're not actively protting against a specific action by the other team, you're just creating a background safety device for your bad warrior to fall back on when he misses the cancel stance button and refreshes frenzy. using prot spirit actively would be something like casting it on someone who's about to be obsidian flame spiked.

Mar 20, 2009, 02:58 AM // 02:58	#15
Skyy High Furnace Stoker Join Date: May 2006 Profession: R/	eddie's definition is the best, imo. It's not as simple as "active = targetted, passive = untargetted" because of the existence of things like [[Life Bond]] and [[Vital Weapon]], which are both single target spells, but clearly passive forms of defense.

Mar 20, 2009, 08:26 AM // 08:26	#17
tmakinen Desert Nomad Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: www.mybearfriend.net Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF] Profession: E/	Eddie gets it right. I would like to elaborate further that ultimately it's a difference in play style, and instead of 'active' a good descriptive word for that playing style would be 'preactive'. The reason why people often talk about passive/active skills is that many skills naturally favor one play style over the other. However, skills are not inherently active or passive and some of them can be used either way. As mentioned, Prot Spirit falls in this category. It's not about AoE/targeted effect either. The old "Incoming!" (before complete makeover) was an AoE spike catch skill and thus intended for active play. On the other hand, when first introduced it had a long enough duration for two paragons chaining it passively. I prefer the word 'preactive' because it embodies the essential quality of the active defence: when you see an action by the enemy and respond with a specific counter, it is a reaction to that action. When you anticipate an action by the enemy and apply a specific counter immediately before the action, it is a preaction to that action. Reaction is a mechanical activity that requires little else than quick reflexes (and that's why heroes are decent in pushing red bars up) whereas preaction requires actual skill, being the primary quality that differentiates good players from the rest.

Mar 20, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50	#19
snaek Forge Runner Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: N/	^starting to change to "active" and "reactive" defense. tbh i think those terms are better for gw, since there really is no "passive" in the usual sense in gw.